Waitiao, thanks for coming on board. Lets get some work done!!
Tu waitiao
Baracutei

I am very happy to welcome you as well Juan. Please let me know if you have any troubles using this site, and I will do what I can to help. I hope this will be rewarding and useful for you.

Very best wishes.

Hello to all. Thanx for the welcoming. I appreciate it.

Ruben, nice to know you too. I want to address your post. From what I have been researching not all tainos were slave's. Also the spaniords did not colonized the whole island as it is asummed. I think its going to be intersting once male genes dna comes out. Because I do belive that taino men did contribute to taino deccendats. I dont think people that look like my grandparents and Jorge Estevez would look the way they look if there was no male gene contribution.

As per no african women in the caribbean that is also another myth. I am going to paste the below paragraph from an email that a friend sent me.


Yes, that's a myth in colonial America (U.S) they wanted black women from the Caribbean so they could "breed" them and poor farmers don't have to buy new shipments of African slaves unlike in Brazil where the crop "sugar "made the plantation owners so rich they didn't rely on women slaves as much, because they could easily buy more slaves and they died frequently of the harsh conditions. So men were in high demand while the poor U.S farmer would buy some women aswell That's proof the Caribbean's had women in demand aswell.

I am sure that dna will confirm the above.

Hey Ruben, I agree with your comments. But I am going to take it a step further. I am going to paste a part of an email I send to Jorge.

Intersting story. My dad was talking to me and my brother in law. He had just cooked yucca. I told him( que bueno yo le tenia un deso a la yucca) My dad started talking about yucca. He said that the town that they are from use to make casibbe. And that this process has to be handled with care. Cuase making cassebe can be dangeruous casue of the poisines liqued. He mentioed a way to filter it. I was paying attention. But I was already familir with this process cause of my studies........Anyways what he and my mom told us next stunned me and my brother in law. Both my parents said that they both ate plantanos for the first time here in the USA. In the late 60's. They said that they didt even know what a platano was until they came to the states. Yucca was the main crop even till this day. Ofcourse now they have platanos but yucca is the dominant vegie. That is crazy. So for over 400 years of platain being introduced to DR. These folks had never even seen a plantain. Intersting ha!


I pasted the above story so you can see some villages in DR are extreamly secluded, especialy in the cibao region. To visit my great grand parents (I dont have a picture scanded yet) we had to get out of the car, walk about 20mint up these muddy road. Up a hill. They had no running water. I told jorges these folks actually dranked rain water. But guess what. To my suprised these folks actually talked about people who live even in more seclution. Up in the mountains. So the point that I am trying to make is. I know this may sound a bit crazy to some. But whats not to say there are people who may be pure blooded tainos. I am sure there could be folks in DR that can be full african aswell. I am sure if they look for them. They will find them.


I think cuba my surprise alot of people. Cuba is much bigger and many places to hide. Cuban populatoin is over 11million. To me that doesnt sound like alot. I mean cuba is about three time bigger than DR. And I am sure that some folks in DR are not even counted in those census.

"Angela Carrasco" WOW its been years since I heard that name. She diffently has native features.On my dads last trip to DR he told me there were alot of europeans migrating to the island. I will be honest I am not familiar with spain. But I know there are many dominicans that live in spain and other european countrys.

I think anything is possible. I mean history books had tainos as compleatly wiped out. Obvoulsy no one went to DR, PR and Cuba to confirm that statement. So untill they go down there and confirm. I am going to take the opposite route that archologist, historian etc normaly pick when they write about tainos. I am going to go with the assumtion that there are full blooded tainos living in any of these islands.

Ruben I havent been able to navigate this site as much as I wanted over the weekend. My sister has been sick and I am trying to help. But the few pages that I went I saw that on some you wrote "I like to know people of Amerindian ancestry of the Carribbean islands. I like your history, and I´ve never believed the false myth about the extinction of the Carribean Indians or "Amerindians" I think that its important for taino deccendants to recongize who they are but I also think it important that non-taino's acknowlege us too. So for this I thank you.

Yeah I saw your friend request and accepted. Thanx.

Ruben I posted to you on lynne page. Again I am still not familir with the site. So not sure if you will see that message. But more or less the below is what I wrote.

Ruben I have incountered the same thing in my family. My mom has told me we should be proud of our indian blood. But then I ask questions she turns around and tells me why you want to know about that stuff! Open a bible or something. Like I said before, even though I knew of my native roots. I learned more from Jorge this is also including his adivice on how to approach family and from a teacher I had living in the village when I was a youngster.

I mean in DR you have people that look like jorge and my family memebers walking around saying that there are no more indians. They dont know that they are the indians.

I actully posted on lynns page on many dominican have called me and my family wanna be dominican. Cause they belive we are eighter salvadorian, ecudorian or from other country in south america. They dont think we look dominicans. Whatever that look is. I was born in the states so I cant even show them a passport. So I will take them my parents.

I myslef am having a hard time approaching dominican who obviously have ameridian blood because of there denial. But that is mostly ingnorance in there part. So I would be able to give you adive. But this is why Jorge's work is so important to taino deccendants of the caribbean not just DR. I myslef have inner conflict. I dont think I have the right to call myself taino deccendant. It's only when I have confronted by some outsiders who have seen native traits in me is when I have actually talked about it.

Hello Juan,and you haven't heard me "wail"on the electric guitar!Kidding,but I do.Juan,I don't have a camera,and my computer is out-of-date,otherwise I'd have a lot of nice Taino pictures and stuff-soon.,,that's why I put up what I had of pictures.Yo naci aqui,pero por lo menos me defiendo bastante bien en Espanol,creo yo!-No se por que pero este ano,he conocido una cuantas Dominicanas...y NO me estoy quejando!Mira cuando quieras me preguntas lo que quiera,y sabes,el Behike del"Caney Spirtual Circle"-lo encuentra aqui,entre los grupos,else llama Miguel Sobaoko Koromo Sague-busque lo,no te arrepentiras,el sabe tanto,el tipo es un"genio" de verdad,y el es mi Behike,y si Dios quiere pronto sera el Representante de du Organizacion,aquiu en "Upstate,New York,donde vivo.Hay tanto de aprender,pero de verdad,es una gran satisfaccion.Bueno hermano,no tengo Casino,desenfortunadamente!,pero por lo menos lo lusco,no?!!En placer en conocerte,Taino ti,
Frank AkuTurey

yes, Barrio Cibao is where San Sebastian, Lares, Camuy and Quebradillas come together. So many familiar names I find throughout the islands!

Hey again,I just realized you're from Corona-I grew up in Jamaica Queens,my father lived in Corona for a while,and I spent a lot of time in Jackson Heights!-brings back alot of memories!I love living upstate,and thank God that there are so many more hispanics now!-I mean a lot!I am VERY grateful for that,for a few years I didn't have too much contact with them.Tell me more about the Guabancex Society!,It's been coming up lately,so It might be a "sign".Brother I am a Bablawo,have been for 15 years,and most of my clients up here were non-hispanics!,There are a lot of Spirirtual people living in certain areas up here,I mean really,there is SO much spirituality up here,so the people were open to finding out about what this Shamnic trip was from Africa/Afro-Hispanic oracles and divination!...magic!"Boo!" jejeje.

Correction:Yo,si Dios quiere,sere el Representante de SU Organizacion,"Caney Spiritual Circle"!

POR FIN!
that is EXACTLY what I have been saying!
only by coming together will we regain what has been lost! p&l~c

Hermano,I meant to leave a comment on your page,and instead I put it on my page!-and it was a long answer to your question-please go to my page and read the long commentary on"Hispanic"Thanks.

Juan,I couldn't find Jorge E.,hook me up!Later,Bo'Matum

Hey Ruen,

You actually make some good points. Even in the mainland like you said this could be a possiblity. I dont belive every thing is known. There are more discovery and inventions that still have not come out yet. So who knows. Your theory is a valid one.


If you read about the other smaller island they accepted the indian population evidently living there. But in the bigger island. Esepcialy cuba and DR the indians became extinct. DR and especially cuba are the largest island. Alot more mountainess areas. But this seems to only have happened in the spanish speaking islands. I wonder why. Could be cause of Bartolme del las casas. Cause even in jamaica they still have people that call themself arawaks (obviously the are tainos) I read that in the 50" (I could have the year wrong) They had a president that was dutch on his dad side and arawak on his mom side. He kinda look like Balaguer a dominican president, historian, poet etc etc etc.

But the resean I wanted you to see the pictures. Is that many people belive that the whole island was colonized when the europeans came. But thats not true. There are parts in DR. The eastern part that yes they have very spanish archecture. The land is flatter. Just like in certain parts of PR and Cuba. But the mountain regions. Or what is called cibao region dont have these type of design. From what I have seen in the cibao region most of it looks like this. Jorge probably can correct me on this if I am wrong. I mean to visit both my grandparent and my great grand parent I had to go up hill. One of my great grandparnts felt like I was going up a mountain. Obvoulsy from looking it in picture form I guess I was right.

Thanks for your comment on my blog. and you are right -- my mom would fry batatas in big slices and we loved them more than potatoes.

Hey Ruben, I am actually trying to get in contact with some cousins. I want to see if I can have them email me pictures. I will put them up here. I am also going to see if I can scan a picture of my mom's mother and her grandparents. Who looked very ameridian to me. They both lived a long time. On my moms side her grandmother passed at 97yo and her grandfather passed at 106 yo. He passed away last year. I wished I would have asked them question before they passed.But I did kiss and hug my great granmother before she passed. She was beautiful. .............. So for a moment there on my mom side we had 5 generations living at the same time. Cause I have teenage daugher too.

Jorge can probably answer that question. You know many Dominicans, Puerto rican and Cubans who obviously have ameridian features are still in denial. So there is alot of work to be done. Luckly we got folks like Jorge Esteves. His work is very important. He is really intersted in educating people. Taino and non taino deccendants. I mean when i went to his presentation I seen things that I had seen in my childhood in the village, that my parents are from. But never thought of it as taino. Im like wow we really kept alot our indian culture that I was not aware of. Also taino organization poping up. That helps in difusing the myth.

I am not surprised that in spain they use taino words. Spaniords saw thing in the caribbean they had never seen before. So why not keep the original names. I am sure the same goes for africa. I mean there are things that the europeans kept there orginal african names. Like when european instruments were introduced. I am sure the indian didnt make new words for them. They probably called it what the europeans called them.

Yeah there were many things europeans didnt know off. Like you said potatoe, also tomatoe which is now a major part of italian cooking. I mean pasta with out marinara souce, I dont thinks so. I wouldn't use the word discover. I mean how can you discover people. But I undestand what your saying.

I think if it wasnt for the american contient. Europe wouldnt be as rich as it is. I mean the foods of europe are influnced by fruits and veggies that didnt grow in europe at the time. Look at chocolate. Aztects drank cups of some tpye choclate milk. The swedish added sugar and now it became theres. I can say the same for alot more fruits and veggies from the american continent.

my artwork, i have some new stuff but i haven't put it up yet, i have a few pictures in the photo pics/album on ning

just start carving on the wood or stone, soap doesn't have the same texture or hardness, whatever material you want to work with just go for it, there is nothing like trial and error

Hey Ruben, I dont see a attach picture on the email section. What I am going to do is temporary put it on my picture section. The pictures are labeled and also have picture A & B. So you will give me the picture number and the the choice. The north american indians pictures are from diffrent tribes, Comanchi, pueblo, Yuman, Muscogee Creek, Choctaw ,ojibwe. I google them and read the profile. The counter picture are actually my family. I tried to pair them on the one that look like eachother.

My father used to make bibles out of soap, they can look really nice if you stain the lines of the work with a brown to dark shade and leave the rest white, just becareful they tend to be very fragile and can easily break , another thing that you might want to try are different color soaps

Taino Ti

I posted the video of Irka, she's Baracuteys friend. You can reach her through him.

Hey compai,

I will asked Jorge about that too. Next week i will see a friend of mine who is jamaican. He is from the city part of jamaican though. But I will asked him about the indigenous side of jamaica. I suspect that the indigenous part is very small. Cause I know many of the taino from there where shiped to DR and cuba. But I am sure many remained and mixed with the africans and I would be suprised if they also mixed with the euros. Like I said I would be surprised if the so called white jamicans that my friend talks about are actually mestizo's.


Intersting about the 10% male taino in PR. Do you what is the taino male % in DR and cuba?

Taino Ti

I have been in the Taino Resurgance monvement for 14 years now and I'm getting concerned at the latest trend of Taino reenactments that I'm seeing in the Caribbean islands and the USA.

I'm in the TAINO RESURGANCE MOVEMENT and want no part of people playing to Indian stereotypes playing on what they think the Taino acted 500 years ago.

In all of my 14 years I have remained a naboria but I have seen a plethora of so called Cacikes, Behikes, Bojitis and Nitainos come after me playing to Indian stereotypes.

Its time for a new restoration!!!

What does the community think ???

I'm ducking!!!!

PLEASE JOIN MY DISCUSSION ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE AT THE FORUM

Taino Ti

I had a talk with a Behike the other day, I think he told me that a Beike works with spirits.
Example Ancestors, Cemis while a Bojiti or Bojitu works as a healer

tainoray

Hey Juan! Thanks for you response...

People in general, and even natives, have been brainwashed into believing that America ends at the borders of the USA! They have forgotten that NATIVE America encompasses ALL: of America, and that is sad...But ignorance is not a good enough reason for anger. (Although I must admit, I don't always have the patience to educate all the time either.)

I would like some information, if you could direct me, regarding the genetic familiarity of the natives of this land. Do you have any info on that to share?

As for the Mexicans... my goodness! Again the political and mental borders come up! It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

taiGuey Natiao

Good meeting you also .. I will give you a call as we have other events comiing up

Peace
Guaraguaorix

No problem, I though you were already on my friends list but I couldn't send you a message.

yup got it

Thanx Brother

It was good seeing you too, I wish I had seen you earlier so we could have talked more. See you at the next gatherings

Caracoli

(tainoray)

I'm glad you enjoyed it, I will try to post more events up, and keep up with this site, it will teach you many things and maybe change your perspective on indigenous awareness

Hi Juan,
Beautiful pictures you've got! You seem to have a large family... :-)
And yes, I can only agree to what you have written about Jorge Estevez - he seem to have so much knowledge in the field.

About my work i Dominica and the Caribs - I will gladly publish the work as soon as it is ready, which I hope will be in the near future.

So you are a taino from Kiskeya? Could you tell me more?
/Pernilla

Wow, thanks for your story! I'll get back to you soon with questions. I think we should be friends! :-)

Hola, Juan. Glad to meet you. This web is so interesting. I know I will learn a lot from you all. Kisses.

Hola, Juan:
Glad you are here.
I was getting ready to write a post much later about what is in my MtDNA. But I might as well share it with you today here.
I have HVR1 and HVR2 results that tell me that I am Haplo Group C.
Haplo Group C tells me that I am a descendant of an Indian woman.
I already know who were the Indigineous women and men who contributed to my genetic pool.
C. Lalueza Fox and her associates did an MtDNA study in 2001 in Cuba and what is now the Dominican Republic. They were studying the people called Ciboney. They also studied the GuanaHuatabey of western Cuba. I found a total of two HVR1 matches in Cuba and five in what is now the Dominican Republic. In light bof those HVR1 matches they are definitely my Ancestors.
(Sic, I have capitalized ancestors out of respect.)
If you look at my family tree of the Maldonado Ortiz online you will see that I have placed those Ancestors at the beginning of my Maternal and Paternal lineage.
The Guanahuatabey, Ciboney, and Caribs as well as other tribes of the Caribbean are considered "neo Taino" by the scientific community.
It is known historically that the Guanahatabey spoke a much different language than the classic Taino did. So much so that it has been recorded that the Taino needed an interpreter to speak to a Guanahuatabey.
Puerto Rico has a very distinct historical background based upon the classic Taino, but Cuba has its Guanahatabey tradition meshed in its culture.
(If you don't mind, I want to use what I am writing here to you as the basis for my next post. Because it is getting very interesting.)
I also want to mention something very important here.
Awhile back in Brazil the remains of an ancient woman was found 40 feet beneath the surface in a cave. They have named her Lazia.
Lazia laid around for a long time in storage until someone got curious and took her skull to reconstruct it by fleshing it in with clay.
This happened after they found out that Lazia remains were 11,500 years old. They also determined that she died at the age of 20. So, she is Abt 11,480 years old. Lazia predates the Mongolian crossing of the Bering Strait. Unfortunately, I don't know if any mtDNA tests were derived from her bones. Some scientists are still pushing the bering Strait theory, others are speculating that her people came up from the south by way of Tierra del Fuego. I am very partial to the latter, southern entry point into the Americas, by the way.
They say she looks African, but when I looked a little closer at her,
I am a portrait artist who has studied racial characteristics, I see with her face the face of an Olmec who came to Veracruz about 1,600 years ago to raise a civilization there that later influenced the whole southern part of the Americas and maybe up north as well, refer to the mound builders.
Interesting. No?
I hope I answered your question.
John Ayes

Hola Juan:
I made a typo.
Her name is Luzia not Lazia.
Ayes

Hola, Juan. yes, I met Jorge thanks to Ruben as well as I met you. Yesterday I was trying to find a photo of and old taino lady to show Ruben how my grandma looked like but I did not find it. I am not sure if this is due to I thought she was taina and she was not or the tainos I see here are different.

Hola, Juan:

I am not buying the African theory either in regard to the Olmec and Luzia. Nor am I buying the "Pale Ink" theory either that they were descendants of Chinese Buddhists.
What I am looking at is the Morphology aspect between Luzia's people and the Olmecs. I am waiting to find the results of her family's MtDNA testing. They found more assemblages in the same area. They were buried with care as well.
No one can really say where the Olmecs came from. But I do know this, in light of Luzia's discovery and dating the Olmecs might have been around for a pretty long time. Their matehematics and art were pretty well developed. Those take a long time to nurture and practice.
Perhaps thousands of years.
Richard leaky I, had a theory that humans had developed independently from Africa. Those 11,400 year old MtDNA sequences will tell us, providing they release the data someday soon.
Ayes

Hola, Juan:
Thanks for the input on Luzia.
They never found the jaw. But one can triagulate using the zygomatic arch and estimate what the jaw might have been like. Of course the resultant image would stil be a guesstimate.
The found other assemblages in the same area that had the same physical attributes of Luzia, that might have helped them to reconstruct an entire face with a jaw included.
Here's another link that explores the theory of an African Origin for Olmecs. It presents ideas that also refutes the African origin by comparing the morphology of American Indigeneous people with the Olmecs. Good article.
http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/afmaya2.pdf
I am agreeing with you that Luzia and her people weren't African.
Please, I hope no one is taking these statements as being racist remarks.
Ayes

Hola Juan:

I don't ascribe to what is contained within the URL links I supplied in the post. I posted those links to allow people to read for themselves the many different opinions and theories that have been surrounding Luzia.

The hoax you wrote about was the Piltdown man Hoax. It had nothing to do with "Lucy." That hoax happened in the early 19th century.

In any case. There are people saying that the Olmec were of African origin. In one of those URL links there was an article that showed photos making comparisons between Olmecs and Africans and Olmecs and American Indigenous people. The author defeated his premise when he showed the comparisons between Olmecs and American Indigenous people. There were many faces within the American Indig. people that matched the Olmec faces.

Look at the post where I included a photo of me at the age of 14. Below that is my mother and below that is my Grand Mother. She was Haplo Group C, Guanahuatabey-Ciboney. Her eyes were Chino and her nose was broad, and her lips were full.

I found another article that spoke to me of a find underwater in the Yucatan. The assemblages were dated 13,400 or 13,900 BC and were written up at the time as "the oldest human fossil remains in the Americas." They were definitely, caucasaoid. That find has been displaced by Luzia's date. 14,480 - 14,475, she was 20 or 25 years of age.

One can argue the African ancestry theory till they are blue in the face and one can argue the caucasoid ancestry theory in the same manner.
Until the MtDNA results come we are all whistling dixie. The MtDNA will cut through the verbage like a warm knife through butter.

My position is that Luzia might have been Indigenous. Haplo Group C used to be very strong beginning at the farthest point South above the Artic, the next place was Inca country and then Brazil. It suddenly weakens in the Yucatan and Central Mexico. It become strong again in the Na-Deen tribes. It weakens again around the region until it picks up again in the North Central United States. Again, I am whistling dixie until those MtDNA results are published.

Thanks for your input. If you find out more bring it here or post an article on it. Perhaps if we keep the discussion rolling others will participate too. Need input from college students who have access to MtDNA papers from Max Planck and the other DNA study going on in Brazil on Luzia's people.

John Ayes

hello, I live in Buffalo which is 8-10 hours from the city I am like 10 minutes from Canada but I do visit NY city were I was born so i will remember to check it out when i do go to the city I enjoyed your photos i put some on of my family
Peace and blessings always
NancyMaria

Hola, Juan:

I think I can rightly say that the Guanahuatabey and Ciboney did live in Puerto Rico. On my personal page at Family Tree DNA I have well over 125 people who match my maternal ancestor's MtDNA. HVR1 and HVR2 sequences. So I can say with some justification that their ancestors must have gotten to Puerto Rico during the repartamiento de Indios very early on, from 1502 through 1600's. They survived living in Puerto Rico as did my MtDNA matches ancestors.
DNA and its study isn't so difficult. If you like I can share some URL's with you that talk about it.
Let me know.
Again, I can't wait for the Ponce DNA tests to go public. They should speak to us about classic Taino sequences. It would be a riot if they matched Ciboney and Guanahuatabey sequences.
You know something primo,
Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic were all one nation. Even during the Spanish days, when the new people came to take it away from the Spanish they became separate countries.
What happened there I can't fully understand.
I'd love to see those three countries come together once again too.
Ayes

Thanks very much Juan!

Hola Juan:

I am writing you this morning to make some corrections.
The person I meant to write about was Louis Leakey, Richard Leakey's father.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html
The link above will take you to an article based on Louis Leakey's premise:
"Origins of Modern Humans: Multiregional or Out of Africa"
I have to warn you though, he was a firm believer in the origin of human beings arising from the apes.
There is a lot of controversy here about humans arising from apes.
But you do have to take into consideration that chimps are just one chromosome away from being human. Everything on this planet is related to another creature in one way or another. That's what interconnectedness is all about. I am sure that I am related to a lot of Cubans, Dominicans, South Americans, Central Americans et al, and I don't mind the possibility of maybe being related to the great apes either. What if Adam was an ape instead of a full fledged human?
An ape can be considered, humanoid because it can stand on two legs and hunt and use a limited amount of logic. Chimps do all of the former. They are very social too. But I am always cautious by not saying I agree with all the paleontologists say about evolution. There's a lot of flaws in those theories too.
Ayes

Addendum:
Also keep in mind that the first MtDNA Eve came into being about 250,000 years ago. That period of time is too short for humans to begin displaying genetic variations, (the races.) Genetic variation is a slow process that takes a whole lot of millions of years. It would make sense if we all looked alike if we had a single common ancestry.
But we don't and logically one can say that we all look alike within our racial groups, this means that we might have arisen from a common ancestry within our our racial group. Paaleoanthropologists seem to be ignoring the above.
Another blooper, the Neaderthals did have ceremonies during the burial of their dead. They placed flowers and sprinkled yellow ochre on the body and included the dead person's tools in the grave.
They did have a primitive form of art to decorate their tools with too.
Ayes