The Ceremonial Taino petaloid hatchet and its relation to the Maya hatchet god Kawil.........El Hacha Ceremonial Taina y su Relacion a Kawil, el Dios del Hacha Maya

[Miguel Sague Jr]

 

                            Hachas tainas

The Ceremonial Taino petaloid hatchet and its relation to the Maya hatchet god Kawil
Miguel A Sague Machiran (published in Spanish and English)

 

EL HACHA CEREMONIAL TAINA TIPO PETALOIDE Y SU RELACION A KAWIL, EL DIOS DEL HACHA MAYA

Miguel A Sague Machiran (publicado en castellano y en ingles) 
  
Until recently the only meaning that I saw in the ceremonial hatchets of the ancient Tainos was Guakar's tool of Experience, one of the means by which the ancient Tainos gained wisdom through harsh experience. The Taino word for ceremonial hatchet is "manaya". These so-called "petaloid celt" hatchets are very common and get their archeological name "petaloid" because the actual tear-like stone blade is shaped like a flower petal. The petaloid hatchet blades have an interesting history in Cuba. In that island the Yoruba African people who were brought as slaves by the Spanish, often found these stones in the fields as they were working, and for reasons that until now seemed to elude me they identified them with thunder-bolts, and associated them with their Yoruba orisha-diety, Chango. In relation to this post I would like to point out that as in the case of all of the other Regla De Osha orisha-deities, Chango has special colors which are unique to him. His colors are red and white. He is portrayed as wearing a red and white crown and carries a double-headed red and white hatchet in one hand.

Hasta muy recientemente el unico significado que yo pude darle a las hachas ceremoniales de los tainos antiguos era el del arma del espiritu de la experiencia ruda, Guakar, uno de los medios que este cemi emplea para despertar la sabiduria en la mente del ser humano atravez de dolorosas circumstancias, o sea, la experiencia. La palabra taina de este instrumento es "manaya". Estas llamadas hachas tipo "celta petaloide" son sumamente comunes y reciben su nombre arqueologico dado a que la forma del elemento litico de estos instrumentos se asemeja a la del petal de una flor. Las hojas de piedra de las hachas petaloides tienen una historia interesante en Cuba. En esa isla los africanos yorubas o lucumi que fueron traidos por los espa~oles bajo el sistema exclavizador, solian hallar muchas de estas piedras en los campos de labranza en los cuales se les obligaba trabajar. Por razones que hasta recientemente yo no podia explicar, esos africanos llegaron a identificar estos objetos antiguos con los rayos y relampagos de uno de sus dioses (orisha) llamado Chango, el dios del trueno. Respecto a este mensaje quiero indicar que, al igual que ocurre en el caso de todos los orishas de ese sistema espiritual, a Chango se le asigna ciertos colores simbolicos que son unicos de el. Chango simpre se representa con los colores blanco y rojo, y en una mano siempre lleva un hacha blanca y roja.

 

Some time back I did a fairly thorough personal study of the Taino
hatchets in all of their manifestations . Most of my study was done with the help of the book by the Cuban archeologist Rene Herrera Fritot, titled Estudio De Las Hachas Antillanas 1. The many images of Taino hatches in the book that I was reading at the time gave me access to a very wide assortment of these objects and allowed me the opportunity to compare the many manifestations in which they were modelled.

 

Algunos a~os atras yo hice un estudio personal muy cuidadoso con respecto a las hachas tainas en todas sus manifestaciones. La mayor parte de mis estudios se llevaron a cabo con la ayuda de un libro publicado por el arqueologo cubano Rene Herrera Fritot. El libro se titula  Estudio De Las Hachas Antillanas  1 . Las muchas imagenes de hachas tainas en este libro que yo estudiaba en ese tiempo me dieron acceso a una gran variedad de estos objetos y me aportaron la oportunidad de comparar las muchas manifestaciones en las cuales esas hachas se modelaron.
 
As I mentioned earlier, most of these axes were created with a stone blade, carefully ground and polished to the shape of a smooth petal-shaped or tear-drop shaped celt. This blade was then fitted or hafted into a wooden handle to create the traditional Taino hatchet. On rare occasions a complete hatchet was fashioned out of one piece of stone, carefully shaped and polished to look like the original objects which in fact have a wooden handle. There seems to be a tendency for the Taino craftsman to sometimes replace the original material that was traditionally used to create a ritual object with another material. Sometimes wood is replaced with stone. In the case of the manaya the wooden handle is replaced by a stone one rendering an object that is totally made of stone.

Como ya mencione anteriormente, la mayoria de estas hachas fueron construidas con ojas liticas (el elemento cortante) que eran elaboradas de piedra, cuidadosamente pulidas y modeladas en forma de petal de flor o gota de agua. Esta hoja litica era fijada en un mango de madera para de esa manera crear el hacha taina tipica. En ocasiones especiales se elaboraba un hacha completamente de piedra, en la cual el mango de madera era sustituido por uno del material mas duro en forma monolitica.

 

 

 

I found one example of a beautifully crafted all-stone manaya in the pages of the book. Curiously this particular piece had a carefully and skillfully shaped human foot carved at the end of the handle in place of the usual knob that you find there to keep the axe handle from flying out of the user's hand in the midst of work. It
was as if the artist had an understanding of this object as being a living deity, like a cemi, and provided it with a foot as all cemies have.

Me encontre un ejemplar precioso de esa clase de manaya monolitica en las paginas de ese libro. Curiosamente a esa manaya se le esculpio muy talentosamente la forma de un pie humano en el extremo del mango donde normalmente suele encontrarse un nudo redondo modelado que sirve para evitar que el instrumento salga volando de la mano cuando se encuentra en uso. Es como si el artista taino tuviese un entendimiento de ese objeto como un ser viviente, una deidad o cemi. Por eso el artista le proporciono un pie de forma humana como siempre se le proporcionaba a cualquier imagen de los cemies.

 manaya with a human foot carved into the stone at the end of the handle complete with ankle bump and toes

manaya con la forma de un pie humano en el extremo del mango con dedos del pie  y tobillo

 

I have thought of this cemi  /hatchet a lot over the years. In any case it is obvious that these hatchets were considered to have spiritual significance because many of them have images of spirit beings attached to them, mostly at the top, the "head" of the hatchet.

E meditado el significado de ese cemi-hacha por muchos a~os. Es obvio que los antiguos tainos consideraban que estas hachas tenian una qualidad intrinsica de vida y que  consideraban que ellas tenian significado espiritual porque muchas de esas hachas monoliticas llevaban imagenes de cemies, casi siempre en la parte superior del instrumento, la "cabeza" de la manaya.

 another manaya with the form of a human foot carved at the end of the handle and the face of a cemi at the top or "head" of the hatchet

otra manaya con la forma de un pie humano en el extremo del mango y la cara de un cemi en el extremo superior o "cabeza" del hacha

 

 

If you think of the hatchet as being a living sacred being, and you image it as having parts of a body in the same way that a human being has, then the bottom end of the handle (be it wooden or be it stone) would be the foot (and it's obvious that the Taino ancestors saw that part of the handle as a foot because of the example that I mentioned
before with the carving of the foot at the bottom end). The top end would be the head and the petal-shaped blade would appear to be piercing this "head". I mention all of these facts because they play an important role in the more recent research that I have been doing lately in the field of Maya symbology.

Si se considera la manaya como un ser viviente sagrado, y si se percibe que tiene partes del cuerpo como un ser humano entonces el extremo del mango (sea de madera o de piedra) debe ser el pie (es obvio que los antiguos tainos asi lo consideraban pues ahi esculpieron un pie humano). El otro extremo, o parte superior del instrumento seria la cabeza, y la hoja cortante, la pieza litica petaloide insertada en el hueco del astil parece que traspasa la frente de esa "cabeza". E mencionado estas cosas porque juegan un papel muy importante en los estudios a los cuales me e dedicado mas recientemente en el campo del simbolismo maya de Centro America.

It turns out that the Classic era Maya, according to Schelle, Friedel and Frew in their book Maya Cosmos worshipped a special  deity now sometimes identified as K'awil, who was imaged as a hatchet. He either had only one leg (which in a way was imaged as the handle of the tool)or he had two legs but one was a lot longer than the other (sometimes
ending in a snake head instead of a foot)and he appeared to be spinning on his longer leg. This deity often was represented as having the stone blade of a hatchet piercing his forehead and oftentimes that blade was represented as a thunderbolt 2.

Resulta que de acuerdo a las investigaciones de los etnologos Schelle, Friedel  y Frew expuestos en su libro "MAYA COSMOS", los antiguos mayas de la era clasica adoraban una deidad especial que ahora se identifica a veces con el nombre de K'awil. Esta deidad se identificaba con un hacha. Los antiguos mayas consideraban que esta deidad-hacha  tenia una sola pierna y un solo pie, o si lo representaban en sus obras artisticas con dos piernas pues una pierna era mas larga que la otra. Muchas veces la pierna mas larga se representaba con  una cabeza de serpiente en el extremo en vez de un pie. Los antiguos mayas consideraban que esta deidad solia bailar una danza que se movia en forma espiral, girando como un remolino en su larga pierna como si fuera un tornado o huracan, por lo cual K'awil se identificaba con las tormentas en las cuales abundan los rayos y los relampagos. Esta deidad la representaban casi siempre con cara humanoide y una hoja de hacha petaloide que le traspasa la frente. Muchas veces esa hoja petaloide la representaban como un relampago ardiente 2.

Remember that the Yoruba slaves in Cuba associated the Taino stone hatchet blades that they found in the fields with thunderbolts of their orisha-deity Chango. It is possible that the Tainos who these Yorubas met when they were brought to Cuba instructed them as to a relationship between the hatchet and a Taino thunder spirit or storm spirit of some kind. This could be the reason that the Yorubas associated the stone axe-heads with Chango.

A de recordarse que, como mencione anteriormente, los esclavos yoruba tenian la tendencia de asociar las hachas petaloides que ellos encontraban en los campos de labranza con los relampagos y con su dios africano Chango. Es posible que los tainos con quien estos africanos inevitablemente se asociaron despues de llegar a Cuba instruyeron a esos africanos en torno al significado de la relacion entre las hachas que sus antepasados habian elaborado y alguna deida taina del relampago cuya identidad no se conoce ya. Esta puede ser la razon por la cual los yorubas africanos llegaron a identificar las hachas con el orisha Chango.
 
The Maya K'awil was a deity associated with transformation. He seems to have been very strongly connected with the spiritual transition that a leader underwent at the moment when he assumed the authority of kingship. Oftentimes Classic Maya rulers would have themselves represented on carvings with a K'awil axe-blade piercing their forehead to symbolize a moment of deep personal transformation (for example on the day when the king would assume the throne). Oftentimes these stone celts sticking out of their foreheads would be shown smoking to represent that these were not ordinary axe-heads, they were fiery thunderbolt axe-heads 3.

 

La deidad maya conocida corrientemente con el nombre K'awil siempre se asociaba con actos de transformacion. De acuerdo a los estudios de Schelle y Frew es evidente que esa divinidad maya se identificaba fuertemente con la transicion espiritual que un rey o jefe experimentaba en el momento que el asumia la autoridad del mando. A menudo los grandes reyes mayas causaban que sus artistas los representaran en sus esculpturas con una hoja de hacha petaloide encrustada en su frente. Esto lo hacian para representar un momento de transicion personal (por ejemplo en el momento en el cual asumian el mando). A menudo estas hachas petaloides que los artistas representaban clavadas en las frentes de los reyes ostentaban llamas y humo que representaban el hecho que la hoja petaloide era un relampago o un rayo incendiario 3. 

 

The deity K'awil was represented as a human-like being but he was also represented as a hand-held hatchet and as such the Maya drawings of these hatchets look exactly like the Taino hatchets. It is understood in the Maya symbology that the top of the hatchet is in fact the head of K'awil pierced by the petal-shaped stone thunder-bolt blade, while the bottom end is his one foot. Oftentimes the images of these hatchets are decorated with glyph designs called "cauak signs" These signs represent thunder. Nowadays the modern manifestation of this spirit is a character in modern Quiche Maya tradition called "Ah Itz" (loosely translated "Master of the sacred substance"). As described by Raphael Girard in his book Esotericism of the Popol Vuh, this character is personified by a man in special regalia during traditional Mayan calendar ceremonies. His regalia included red and white clothes, a red and white headress that looks very much like a crown and a red and white hatchet. His task during these ceremonies is to activate a special energy that the Quiches believe exists in their calendar day-keepers. This energy is referred to as "lightning in the blood". The Ah Itz walk around the crowd during the ceremonies touching the holy day-keepers and activating the lightning in their blood 4.

Los antiguos mayas representaban a K'awil muchas veces con forma humanoide, con brazos, cuello, piernas barriga etc. Pero otras veces lo representaban como un hacha petaloide en la mano de un rey o jefe importante. Esas imagenes de K'awil en forma de hacha son casi identicas a las hachas petaloides tainas. Es obvio que la parte superior de esas hachas mayas son en realidad la cabeza del dios K'awil con su frente traspasada por la hoja petaloide de hacha. Es tambien obvio que esas hojas petaloides casi siempre representan un rayo o un relampago incandente. El extremo inferior del mango del hacha se identifica con el pie del dios danzando su danza espiral de huracan. Muchas veces los artistas mayas decoraban esas hojas petaloides con simbolos identificados por los arquelogos como "signos cauak". Estos signos cauac representan el trueno. En las tradiciones del dia de hoy entre los mayas de Guatemala la manifestacion de ese espiritu es un personaje llamado "Aj Itz" (se traduce "El mestro de la sustancia sagrada").  Como lo describio Raphael Girard en su libro Esotericismo del Popol Vh, ese personaje lo representa un hombre vestido con un traje especial durante las celebraciones cuando se inaguran nuevos chamanes del calendario maya. Su traje incluye ropas de color blanco y rojo, un diadema blaco y rojo en forma de corona y una hacha blanca y roja. Su labor durante esas ceremonias es la de activar una energia especial que esos mayas consideran que existe en la sangre de los chamanes del calendario iniciados. Esa energia se le llama el "relampago en la sangre". El Aj Itz diambula por todos lados entre los celebrantes tocando a cada uno de los iniciados chamanes con su hacha y activando el relampago en la sangre de cada uno 4. 
  
It is very probable that red and white were the colors already associated with the thunder spirit Chango when the Yoruba came over from Africa, but it is, in my opinion, possible also that these African immigrants associated the Taino stone hatchet with their spirit Chango because the Tainos told them that they also used the bright red achiote paint called bija to represent thunder and transformation. It is possible that they told the Africans that the hatchet was a spirit in itself, a spirit of transformation related to the Maya K'awil. It is possible that the Taino hatchet was a personified hatchet-shaped cemi, whose forehead was pierced by a thunder-blade just like the Maya spirit K’awil.. Remember that there is now incontrovertible proof of physical cultural contact between the Tainos and the Mayas evidenced by the discovery of a Taino manatee-bone vomic spatula at the Maya site of Altun Ha in Belize by a
Canadian archeological team led by the arqueologist Pendergast. This was reported by Ronald Canter in his abstract published in the Journal of the Ancient Americas, explaining the amount of evidence that currently exists of a brisk  material and cultural exchange between the Mesoamerican and Taino cultures  5.

Es probable que los colores blanco y rojo ya eran los colores asociados con el dios africano del relampago Chango cuando la creencia en ese dios fue traida a las Antillas desde el Africa. Pero tambien en mi opinion es posible que esos africanos hallan decidido hacer el enlace entre las hachas petaloides y su dios del trueno, vistiendolo de blanco y rojo, porque los tainos con quien ellos se asociaron les dieron instruccion con respecto a esas hachas como espiritu del relampago, que el color rojo de la bija se asociaba a esa tradicion del relampago como color del fuego que nace del rayo, que ese color representaba el color de la transformacion relacionado al K'awil de los mayas. Es posible que la manaya taina era un cemi-hacha cuya frente es traspasada por una hoja petaloide igual a la del espiritu maya K'awil. A de recordarse que existe prueba incontrovertible que hubo contactos fisicos y culturales entre los antiguos tainos y los antiguos mayas. Una evidencia de esa relacion transcultural es el encuentro de una espatula vomitoria de hueso de manati al estilo taino en el sitio arqueologico maya llamado ALTUN HA en Beize. Fue hallado por un equipo arqueologico canadiense dirigido por el arqueologo Pendergast. Esto fue reportado por Ronald Canter en su ponencia de 2006 a la revista Journal of the Ancient Americas, explicando la cantidad de evidencia que existe de un intercabio material y cultural entre las culturas mesoamericanas y los tainos 5 

The Maya worshipped a spirit that they called "Hun-Rakan" and sometimes "Hurakan". For a long time I have attempted to discover what relationship, if any, this spirit had with our own storm spirit Hurakan.The fact that the Maya Hurakan also was associated with spinning storms such as tornadoes and hurricanes seems to be strong
evidence that this spirit was shared in common by both the Tainos and the Mayas and it would take further linguistic research to figure out who had him first. I am inclined to suspect that the Mayas acquired the belief in Hurakan from the Tainos. The Mayas imaged the characteristics of Hurakan to be strongly associated to those of K'awil. That is why they associated K'awil's gyrating dance on his one foot with the turning, spiral of the tornado's lower tip and with the spinning motion of the hurricane. So in a way the Maya Hurakan was also seen as a spirit of transformation. There is also evidence that the spinning motion of the Big and Little Dipper constellations are likewise associated with the god Hun Rakan or Hurakan.

 

Los antiguos mayas le rindieron culto a un espiritu al cual ellos llamaron "Hun-Rakan" y otras veces "Hurakan". Por mucho tiempo e tratado de descubrir cual fue la relacion entre ese personaje de la tradicion maya y nuestro cemi taino de las tormentas del mismo nombre "Hurakan". El hecho que el espiritu maya Hurakan tambien se asociaba con las tormentas que jiran en forma de espiral como los ciclones y tornados parece ofrecer evidencia fuerte que esos dos personajes compartieron una fuente comun y que era un solo ser divino compartido por tainos y mayas. Hace falta proceder con estudios linguisticos adicionales para llegar a la conclusion de cual de las dos etnias llego a creer en ese espiritu primero. Yo tiendo a pensar que los mayas aprendieron de los tainos acerca de Hurakan.

Los antiguos mayas asociaron las caracteristicas de Hurakan con las de K'awil por lo cual se imaginaban la danza en forma espiral de K'awil con su solo pie como si fuera el movimiento  del tornado con su larga trompa que parece una pierna, o un ciclon con movimiento que gira y gira.  Por esa razon el espiritu maya Hun-Rakan tambien se vio como espiritu de transformacion al igual de K'awil. Tambien existe evidencia que el movimiento aparente en forma de espiral de las constelaciones de Osa Mayor y Osa Menor tambien fueron asociadas por los antiguos mayas con el dios Hun-Rakan o Hurakan.
 
I believe that the Taino hatchet was more than just a sacred ceremonial object or tool. I believe that it was perceived as a cemi, a spirit of lightning and thunder in its own right just like the Maya hatchet spirit K'awil. I believe that the ancient Tainos imaged this spiritual being as a transforming character, who had the power to
take a person from one level of existance to another, changing that person, transforming that person, perhaps in an evolutionary manner.

 

Yo e llegado a la conclusion que la manaya taina fue mas que un objeto ceremonial o una herramienta corriente. Yo creo que los antiguos tainos percibian a esas hachas como personajes sagrados, cemies. Era un espiritu del relampago o el trueno igual al espiritu maya del relampago y el rayo,  K'awil. Los tainos percibian a ese espiritu al nivel de un personaje de la transformacion que tuvo el poder de trasportar a la persona de un nivel de existencia a otro, cambiandolo, quiza de una manera evolucionaria.

 

This is well in keeping with my belief that the manaya is the tool of Guakar because I can not imagine a personal life-event more transforming than a moment of experience involving the fundamental concept of trial and error. I believe that Guakar with his manaya, was the spirit of Experience.

 

Esto coincide con mi opinion que la manaya es la herramienta sagrada del cemi Guakar, porque no me puedo imaginar de un evento de vivencia mas trancendente que el momento en el cual el ser humano recibe la sabiduria atarvez de la experiencias duras de la vida. Como siempre e creido, Guakar con su manaya es el espiritu de la EXPERIENCIA.

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1 Rene Herrera Fritot, Estudio de las hachas antillanas (Habana: Departamento de Antropología, Comisión Nacional de la Academia de Ciencias, Republica de Cuba, 1964 - Indians of the West Indies - 146 pages)

2 Friedel, Parker and Schele, Maya Cosmos (New York: HarperCollins 1995)

3  ibid

4  Girard, Esoterismo del Popol Vuh (Ciudad Mexico: Editorial Stylo 1948)

5 Ronald Canter, Yucatan Channel and Trade (Report submitted to the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies Inc. Journal of the Ancient Americas, November 2006)

 

	Rene%20fritot.pdf

 

[Joey Karei Inherst]

This reminds me of a possible semi dont know the name of it, but made from cotton, overlaid with glassbeads, mirrors, and in one case iron hooks, with a face/mask made from rhinoceros horn, materials from africa located in a European museum.

[Joey Karei Inherst]

Hahom Behike! I continue to grow with your knowledge. Seneko Kakona!! Taino Ti!!

[Miguel Sague Jr]

My sister Kokuyu

Thanks for the comments you left here back in May. I loook forward to more interaction with you soon.

[Kokuyo Beike-in-training]

Beike, This was a great artitlce.  I found it very fascinating, the similarities between the manayas and the ah itz .  And the Hurakan Spirit being a shared spirit is just amazing.  Thank you for all your time it took doing research for the above.  It was very informative.

[Miguel Sague Jr]

Tau Carrie
I'm glad you brought this up. This is actually a point that I have made many many times. Much of the living tradition that we know we inherited from the ancient Tainos was transmitted down through the ages within a cultural amalgam called "syncretism". Syncretism is a phenomenon within which ancient tradition from one culture is mixed with the tradition of another culture and it becomes whole new traditional complex. In my own native country, Cuba this phenomenon emerged under the name "Santeria". Santeria is a cultural tradition that is primarily of African origin, evolving mainly from spiritual customs of the ancient Yoruba people of West Africa (Nigeria, Benin etc.). This African tradition developed in Cuba among the Yoruba slaves who worked the agricultural entreprises of the Spanish, such as tobacco, and later sugar.
Forced by the Spanish to adopt Catholism, the slaves began using and praying to the images of Catholic saints but in fact these images to them represented deities and spirits from their own African tradition.

Within this mileu, the Africans also began adopting traditions that obviously could not have been derived directly from their own culture. For instance, contrary to certain claims that I have heard and read about in some publications. There was no tobacco in Africa. I have friends that swear that tobacco seeds were found in the wrappings of Egyptian mummies, and I respect their opinion but I do not agree with it. I have yet to see any real evidence of this. There are a number of important ceremonies in Santeria that include the use of a lit cigar and the blowing of cigar smoke over the head of another person. This is a Taino tradition, plain and simple, which has been adopted by Santeria and as a result of that adoption has managed to survive down through the centuries all the way down to our own time. If the Africans had not adopted this tradition it would not have survived. We, the descendants of both Taino and African ancestors owe a debt of gratitude to those people for maintainng these ways alive for four to five hundred years.

There are many other traditions like that which can be verified. One other that I can mention is the various version of the "despojo". This is a healing ritual which contains elements of usage that harken back to the ancient Tainos. One version of the despojo that was taught to me by my wife (who learned it from her mother) involves the grabbing of the arms and hands of a person who is not feeling well. The person who is performing the ceremony first turns the patient around, spins him or her two times in each direction, then rubs along the length of the arms from the shoulders down toward the hands as if pulling something out. The person pulls and shakes the arms and hands vigorously as if pulling the malady out of the other person's body through his of her limbs. In Jose Juan Arrom's translation of Ramon Pane's narrative he quotes this passage concerning the technique used by an ancient Taino boitiu (healer-shaman) when healing a sick person:
"Cuando van a visitar a algun enfermo...da dos vueltas alrededor de el, como le parece; y luego se le pone delante, y lo toma por las piernas, palpandolo por los muslos y siguiendo hasta los pies; despues tira de el fuertemente, como si quisiera arrancar alguna cosa." (For the Spanish impaired "When they go to visit someone who is sick they move around the ill person two times, then later they stand in front of the patient, grab the patient by the thighs and rub down the leg toward the feet. Then they pull vigorously as if attempting to snatch something away.")

It is true that this description varies from the procedure used by my mother-in-law because the limb that is grabbed is the leg instead of the arms. Nevertheless the way that the procedure is peformed is almost identical in my opinion. Like this there are countless other parallels of procedures and customs practiced today by the common people of Cuba which are derived from the traditions of the ancient Tainos and which survived within the syncretic culture of modern Cubans.

Taino Ti
Miguel Sobaoko Koromo Sague

[adem medina cardona]

in the case of the african slaves having this information (identifying one of their own gods with the tool) how often have these oportunities come up and how often have they been believed to be accurate before.
hopefully i am making clear what i am thinking
let me try another way...
how much information has been preserved through the route of other cultures having contact with the tainos before or after the spanish arrival?
i am curious
p&l~c

[Miguel Sague Jr]

Thank you so very much for these enlightenments Juan and Ayes.
Juan, you are correct about the fact that Spanish conquistadores exploring the mainland coast came upon Tainos either living among the Mayas or being captured by Mayas. As far as I am concerned the evidence indicates that a long tradition of sustained interaction some positive and some negative existed between the two nations.

Ayes I also see the parallel between this positioning of the lightning blade right in the third eye region of the forehead as representing more than a "coincidence" between the Maya/Taino spiritulity and the traditions of Asia. Frankly, I believe that there are spiritual connections between these two cultures, not necessarily because there could be any physical connection or even meeting between the peoples from these two traditions, but rather that this fundamental spiritual concept is born of the Earth Spiri and therefore enlightens cultures that are far separated from each other.

[Ayesart]

Very good article and illustrations.

You might consider this.
The ancient Taino were very earth centered. They knew many things that other races came to know in their own fashion.
If you look at the weapon as a weapon then you will only see the weapon.
But if you look at the thing as a ceremonial object you will see that it represents a symbol for something that is very powerful.
The key lies within the illustrations of the Mayan dieties.
The flame issuing from their foreheads is known as opening the sixth jade gate. The door of inner perception and awareness.
Its an old concept that was known around the world for eons.
Humans have been endowed with a power far beyond our understanding. Perhaps it comes from our "divine origin."
In India the power is called the serpent power or Kundalini.
On the old Polynesian Islands it is called, Mana.
I will take it no further because you now have to go do your own research.
Ayes

[Juan Almonte]

Bravo Sobaoko, very informative my brother.

Money is tight now but when things pickup a manaya, macana, cemis etc etc etc are things I am going to see if I can purchase and or make.


You wrote" Remember that there is now incontrovertible proof of physical cultural contact between the Tainos and the Mayas evidenced by the discovery of a Taino manatee-bone vomic spatula at the Maya site of Altun Ha in Belize by a Canadian archeological team."

From my understanding the spaniords found taino in the mainland too. I forgot were I read that spaniords found a taino in a mayan village and they asked her were was she siad she was from the island of cuba. So its already been documented.


You wrote"I am inclined to suspect that the Mayas acquired the belief in Hurakan from the Tainos"

Damon Corrie ( from the lokono tribe) Told me that our ancestors arawak was not pure. Cause they traded with many indigenous groups especially with the mayans. So they droped many arawak word for mayan. I dought that this was only a one way give and take. I am sure the mayans adopted certain taino things. Wither it be words, customs, religion etc etc.


You know its weired. Many years ago I saw a north american indian book. They had a picture of a woden club. The tribe ( I dont remember the name of the tribe) anyways they called it macan. Very close to our macana word for the same weopon. Just missing the "a" at the end.