"God's chosen people were in North America before Indians"

[adem medina cardona]

"God's chosen people (blond, blue eyed) were here in North America before the Indians. Our scriptures teach the truth. They came here first and some of them went south, both literally AND figuratively. They were sent south by God because they became disintegrated people, so God punished them and that is who the Mayan people are, disintegrated people." ~my neighbor said this in front of my son (pictured above) just before he left my house on noche buena.

I interrupted with, "Ok, that is enough. I have taken in just about enough of that." I followed up about 15 minutes later with a serious talk about racism to my son.

I have arrived in the USA after a serious financial crisis and on the eve of the election of Obama. It has been clear to me that racism in the USA is on the rise. I believe it is the increased competition for resources elevating the issue. No longer are people content with the old standard, "I am not racist, I am color blind." Essentially, I don’t see your color, so can't we just all be white?? Why is it that we have not learned from our past mistakes?

When will we learn to acknowledge and respect each other as part of the HUMAN race, a rich tapestry of culture and COLORS?

This 2009, celebrate our differences and make them a place where we can come together in peace and luv.

I challenge all of you to face these moments with peace and strength from within so that we are not drawn in to the violence. Stand strong, with hope and dignity.

Your sister~c

[Juan Almonte]

LOL, I know you meant it as a joke. But it true I am the worst writter. Bad spelling and grammer. But the things is that I am a fast typist so I overlook sometimes.

Yeah dominican spanish is a bit diffrent than spaniords spanish. No offence, but I am proud of that. That means we have not only retained our taino words but also our taino accent.

[adem medina cardona]

thank you for your visit Samuel
i am pleased to meet you in this forum
peace&luv~c

[Juan Almonte]

Samuel, I commented in Carries page that the mormons actually belive that native american are one of the tribes of isreal. There are also isrealites here in the states that bevlie that every part of the amreican continent is from one of the 12 tibes of isreal. That native american actually came by boat. I had explained to them that, is incorrect. I told them that native people were mongloids. They like I been wrong by the white man. Then I went on to explain to them using myself that anthropolgy speaking I was a mongloid. They basically dismised me and didnt let me talk. Very ingnorant people. Native american do not come from the middle east like thse guys and the mormon belive.

Actually the mormons are very racist. Even thought they belive that native american became darker cause god punishment, and that they are the missing tribe of isreal. They actually belve that god turned african black to punish them. I think you can do a search on youtube there is even a cartoon explaining it. I actually did ask a mormon this and he said it was true. Thy guy thought I was from south american and was trying to convert me.

[Juan Almonte]

Side note. Many native amercians even north american indians too are converting to this religion cause of this presitge.

[Miguel Sague Jr]

Tau My Relatives
I have followed this discussion with interest. Although I feel that I have little to contribute that has not already been said very well by others here, I thought, in support of the statemens made by Juan about the beliefs of those who follow the Book of Mormon I would bring you the following quotes. The quotes are from a treatise that demonstrates some of the historic origins of racist attitudes that lie behind the statement made by the man quoted by our sisterCarrie. This treatise is, in my opinion, a desperate attempt by a follower of the Book of Mormon (probably a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) to reconcile the obviously racist text of that book with contemporary American sensitivity to racism. It refers to a number of passages in the book that allude to the origins of the Indigenous people of the Americas, whom they cal Lamanaites. The Book of Mormon claims that Israelites came to this continent n the distan past and they were all white. It further claims that one particular portion of the Israelites (the Lamanites) fell out of favor with God and therefore were punished with a curse that included a skin color change from their orignal "white and delightsome" hue to a duskier "scale of darkness" which made them repugnant and ugly. The article attempts to redefine th word "white" and change it to "pure".

I don't think the apologist in this case, trying to defend the book is very successful at all, but you read it and judge for yourself.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Lamanite_curse
__________________________________________________________
Criticism
Critics claim that the Church believed that Lamanites who accepted the Gospel would become light-skinned.
"Mormon folklore" claims that Native Americans and Polynesians carry a curse based upon "misdeeds on the part of their ancestors."
Source(s) of the criticism
Richard Abanes, Becoming Gods: A Closer Look at 21st-Century Mormonism (Harvest House Publishers: 2005). 73, 367 n.138. ( Index of claims )
Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1945) 43. ( Index of claims )
Simon Southerton, Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (Salt Lake City, UT: Signature Books, 2004) 40, 184. ( Index of claims )
Response
Main articles: Book of Mormon/Red skin curse and Amerindians_as_Lamanites
The curse and the mark
The Bible does indeed use the word curse to describe a punishment to be inflicted as the result of disobedience to God’s commandments. For example, in Deuteronomy we see:

The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. Dueteronomy 28:20
John A. Tvedtnes notes the distinction between the curse and the mark that the Lord set upon the Lamanites. [1]

Thus the word of God is fulfilled, for these are the words which he said to Nephi: Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed, from this time henceforth and forever, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them. Alma 3:14 (emphasis added)
Referring to the passage above, Tvedtnes notes the distinction between the Lamanites having been cursed and having the mark set upon them. The Book of Mormon, however, sometimes does call the mark a curse, as shown in Alma 3:6-7.

And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women. Alma 3:6-7 (emphasis added)
Although this passage refers to the mark as the curse, it later makes a distinction between the curse and the mark. These passages also indicate that the curse was applied prior to the mark. [2]

What is the curse?
Tvedtnes suggests that curse applied to the Lamanites was that they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Nephi states:

Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence. 2_Ne. 5:20
A group of Nephites who joined the Lamanites illustrates. Their skin color was not changed because of their rejection of the Gospel but the curse was applied to them. Hugh Nibley describes the situation of the Amlicites:

Thus we are told (Alma 3:13-14,Alma 2:18) that while the fallen people "set the mark upon themselves," it was none the less God who was marking them: "I will set a mark upon them," etc. So natural and human was the process that it suggested nothing miraculous to the ordinary observer, and "the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves; . . . it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them" (Alma 3:18). Here God places his mark on people as a curse, yet it is an artificial mark which they actually place upon themselves. The mark was not a racial thing but was acquired by "whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites" (Alma 3:10);[3] (emphasis added)
What was the mark?
Main article: Blacks_and_the_priesthood/LDS_scriptures
As shown above, the mark may vary from group to group. The Amlicites marked themselves, and this was taken by the Nephites as a sign of divine "marking."

Many LDS have traditionally assumed that the "mark" was a literal change in racial skin color. There are certainly verses which can be read from this perspective. A key question, however, is whether modern members read the Book of Mormon's ideas through their own society's preoccupations and perspectives. American society was (and, to an extent, continues to be) convulsed over issues regarding race, especially black slavery and its consequences.

As a result, nineteenth- and twentieth-century members may have read as literal passages which were far less literal to the Nephites. Douglas Campbell has completed an exhaustive review of all such references in the Book of Mormon.[4] He found that there were twenty-eight usages of the word "white" or "whiteness" in the Book of Mormon. He divided them into several categories:

Clothing: symbols of purity or cleanness
Fruit (of tree of life): luminosity or holiness
Stone (clear and white): literally white stones are not clear, they are opaque. Thus, white is again a term for holiness or luminosity
Hair (black or white): a single mention (based on the KJV Sermon on the Mount) uses the term as an allegory or symbol
Jesus, his mother Mary, or those made pure by him: exquisite, radiant, awe-inspiring
Gentiles: all Gentiles, thus not about skin color but beautiful, pure, and righteous
The saved: pure, holy, without spot
As a pair of contrasts (black and white, bond and free): sets of opposites
Nephites: See below
Thus, virtually all other uses of the white/black terminology reflects symbolic or spiritual states, not literal color. It is likely that Nephites would not have had the modern American "preoccupation" with skin color, and so would not be burdened with our tendency to see references about skin to automatically imply race.

Thus, concludes Campbell:

White-skinned Nephites and black-skinned Lamanites are metaphors for cultures, not for skin colour. The church teaches that the descendants of the Lamanites inhabited the Americas when Columbus arrived. But Lamanites are not black-skinned; they are not even red-skinned. As the “skin of blackness” is a metaphor, so too is the white skin of the Nephites. Perhaps 3_Ne. 2:15-16, in which the Lamanites have the curse taken from them, fulfills 2_Ne. 30:6. In these verses the Lamanite has become “white and delightsome” not “pure and delightsome.”
I do not believe the Lord changed their physical skin to white in the twinkling of an eye. These Lamanites...became cultural Nephites.
Some things better explained by this model
There are also instances in which skin color does not play a role, when it should—if the skin color change is literal and noticeable. This should suggest that the literal skin model may be inadequate, since it makes nonsense of a few textual passages.

For example, Captain Moroni wanted to portray his men as being "Lamanites." He searched among his troops for someone descended from Laman, and found someone. Moroni sent this man with a troop of Nephite soldiers, and he was able to deceive the Lamanites:

Now the Nephites were guarded in the city of Gid; therefore Moroni appointed Laman and caused that a small number of men should go with him. And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us. Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy...(Alma 55:7-9.)
If skin color is the issue, then a single Lamanite with a group of Nephites should be easy to spot. But, in this case, it is not. Why, then, the need for a Lamanite at all in Moroni's plan?

A "native" Lamanite was probably needed because there were differences in language or pronunciation between cultural Nephites and Lamanites (compare between Ephraim and others' 'shibboleth, Jud. 12:6). Note that the Book of Mormon says that "when the Lamanites heard these words," they relaxed and accepted the Lamanite decoy with his Nephite troops. What they could see had not changed, and surely if a dark-skinned Lamanite shows up with a white-skinned bunch of Nephites, they would be suspicious not matter what he says. But, if Nephites and Lamanites are indistinguishable on physical grounds if dressed properly, then their sudden reassurance when a native Lamanite speaks is understandable.

This fact was probably obvious to Mormon and Captain Moroni. The text does not spell it out for us (since it was obvious to the writers), but the clues are all there for the careful reader.

This passage is nonsensical if literal skin color is the issue. It makes perfect sense, however, if Nephites and Lamanites are often physically indistinguishable, but have some differences in language which are difficult to "fake" for a non-(cultural)-Lamanite.

Is the lifting of the curse associated with a change in skin color?
The Lamanites are promised that if they return to Christ, that "the scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes:"

And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.2_Ne. 30:5-6
Some Church leaders, most notably Spencer W. Kimball, made statements indicating that they believed that the Indians were becoming "white and delightsome." Once such statement made by Elder Kimball in the October 1960 General Conference, 15 years before he became president of the Church:

I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.[5]
President Kimball felt that the Indians were becoming a “white and delightsome” people through the power of God as a result their acceptance of the Gospel. This was not an uncommon belief at the time. At the time that this statement was made by Elder Kimball, the Book of Mormon did indeed say "white and delightsome." This passage is often quoted relative to the lifting of the curse since the phrase "white and delightsome" was changed to "pure and delightsome" in the 1840 (and again in the 1981) editions of the Book of Mormon. The edit made by Joseph Smith in 1840 in which this phrase was changed to "pure and delightsome" had been omitted from subsequent editions, which were actually based upon the 1837 edition rather than the 1840 edition. The modification was not restored again until the 1981 edition with the following explanation:

Some minor errors in the text have been perpetuated in past editions of the Book of Mormon. This edition contains corrections that seem appropriate to bring the material into conformity with prepublication manuscripts and early editions edited by the Prophet Joseph Smith.
It seems evident from the passage in 2 Nephi that the lifting of the curse of the Lamanites was the removal of the "scales of darkness" for their eyes. It is sometimes indicated that Lamanites who had converted to the Gospel and thus had the curse lifted also had the mark removed. If the mark was more in the eyes of the Nephites than in a physical thing like actual skin color, its removal is even more easily understood.

And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year. 3_Ne. 2:15-16
As with the invocation of the curse followed by the application of the mark, this passage indicates that the curse was revoked and the mark was removed when the Lamanites' skin "became white like unto the Nephites." The Book of Mormon makes no mention of any change in skin color as the result of the conversion of Helaman's 2000 warriors, yet these Lamanites and their parents had committed themselves to the Lord, and were often more righteous than than the Nephites were.

Thus, although a change in skin color is sometimes mentioned in conjunction with the lifting of the curse, it does not appear to always have been the case. And, as discussed above, it may well be that Nephite ideas about skin were more symbolic or rhetorical than literal/racial. This perspective harmonizes all the textual data, and explains some things (like the native Lamanite and his band of Nephite troops deceiving the Lamanites) that a literal view of the skin color mark does not.

Chapter headings modified in the 2006 Doubleday edition of the Book of Mormon
This perspective is perhaps reinforced by some recent changes in the Book of Mormon's modern chapter headings.

These headings are not part of the translated text and were never present in the 1830 edition. The most significant expansion of chapter headings occurred in the 1981 edition of all of the Standard Works. Changes made in the chapter headings of the 2006 Doubleday edition reflect the view of the curse being a separation from the presence of the Lord, rather than a "skin of blackness." Note the following two changes to the chapter headings between the 1981 and 2006 (Doubleday) editions (emphasis added):[6]

Chapter Chapter 1981 (Official LDS Church Edition) 2006 (Doubleday Edition)
2 Nephi 5 Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness, and become a scourge unto the Nephites. Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites.
Mormon 5 The Lamanites shall be a dark, filthy, and loathsome people Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them

Conclusion
Although the curse of the Lamanities is often associated directly with their skin color, it may be that this was intended in a far more symbolic sense than modern American members traditionally assumed.

The curse itself came upon them as a result of their rejection of the Gospel. It was possible to be subject to the curse, and to be given a mark, without it being associated with a change in skin color, as demonstrated in the case of the Amlicites. The curse is apparently a separation from the Lord. A close reading of the Book of Mormon text makes it untenable to consider that literal skin color was ever the "curse." At most, the skin color was seen as a mark, and it may well have been that these labels were far more symbolic and cultural than they were literal.

Endnotes
[back] John A. Tvedtnes, "The Charge of 'Racism' in the Book of Mormon," FARMS Review 15/2 (2003): 183–198. off-site PDF link
[back] Tvedtnes.
[back] Hugh W. Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, the World of the Jaredites, There Were Jaredites, edited by John W. Welch with Darrell L. Matthew and Stephen R. Callister, (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Company ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1988), Chapter 4. ISBN 0875791328. off-site GospeLink
[back] Douglas Campbell, "'White' or 'Pure': Five Vignettes," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 29:4 (Winter 1996): 119–135. off-site off-site
[back] Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Report, October, 1960
[back] No More “Skin of Blackness”?: Race and Recent Changes in the Book of Mormon
Further reading
FAIR wiki articles
Book of Mormon textual changes/"white" changed to "pure"
Native Americans to become "white and delightsome" through polygamous marriage?
FAIR web site
External links
Douglas Campbell, "'White' or 'Pure': Five Vignettes," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 29:4 (Winter 1996): 119–135. off-site off-site
Armand Mauss, All Abraham's Children off-site
Printed material
Michael Pasquier, "Though Their Skin Remains Brown, I Hope Their Souls Will Soon be White," Slavery, French Missionaries, and the Roman Catholic Priesthood in the American South, 1789-1865, by Michael Pasquier, Florida State University, (June 2008): 337-370. [This work discusses some historical parallels to how Amerindians were seen in early American history.]

[Caracoli]

"If you say you are free and you worship other peoples God concept, respect his taste, look at their women as the epitomy of beauty and neglect your own then the chains on your mind are more binding that the chains they ever put on your body and

"YOU'RE STILL A SLAVE"

John Henrik Clarke

I swear sometimes I wonder how long are we going to talk about this. The book of mormon is a piece of garbage. It doesn't matter whether its literal or metaphorical because the after effects are disastrous for our people.

I feel sorry for colonized Indians

Colonized minds cannot build a nation for Tainos

[Caracoli]

Samuel are you Taino or a student of the Taino ?

[Caracoli]

Are you Taino or are you not ?

[adem medina cardona]

i do not appreciate the book of mormon, this is true, but i was presented with this idea in my own home and was shocked. i figure others must have delt with this issue as well. i do not wish to promote the ideals but to find ways to effectively respond to these issues as my children are facing them for the first time in the USA

[adem medina cardona]

Chapter Chapter 1981 (Official LDS Church Edition) 2006 (Doubleday Edition)
2 Nephi 5 Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness, and become a scourge unto the Nephites. Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites.
Mormon 5 The Lamanites shall be a dark, filthy, and loathsome people Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them
Michael Pasquier, "Though Their Skin Remains Brown, I Hope Their Souls Will Soon be White," Slavery, French Missionaries, and the Roman Catholic Priesthood in the American South, 1789-1865, by Michael Pasquier, Florida State University, (June 2008): 337-370. [This work discusses some historical parallels to how Amerindians were seen in early American history.]



wow
so my perception of the thinking of a few people that we can all live side by side if we all turn ´white´is correct.
how completely and profoundly nausiating

this is the mindset i am trying to learn ow to deal with so that my children will be effectively taught how to be strong leaders promoting peace

i struggle but know that there are others, even here at ICN, who can help me with this.

[Caracoli]

Oh Ok so you are not Taino, thats ok but the mission of this site which is made quire clear on the homepage states

"A network for indigenous Caribbean students, researchers, activists, writers and anyone with an interest in sharing and exchanging ideas and information on indigenous Caribbean culture and society."

Indigenous meaning not people who were born there after 1493 but the pre-contact Indigenous people of the Caribbean.

I gave you an opportunity to affirm your identity and you have answered African & Spaniard, so what pray tell do you have to contribute to the forum thats indigenous to the caribbean ? since christianity is not.

[adem medina cardona]

the boy in the pic is a child of our Earth. his grandparents came from Bolinken, Jamaica, Espana, Guatemala and China