At 12:28pm on November 10, 2008, SpiritWater said…
Hi Juan,
Peace unto u and ur family you would love this area kind of quiet but a lot to see like the great Niagara Falls and u can walk over the bridge to Canada if u ever get to these parts let me know we have the great turtle 6 nations in this part Seneca onondaga mohawk cayuga tuscarora oneida these tribes are very different from the southern and western tribes
well take care
Peace
Nancy
Thanks for writing on my page, I always welcome ppl to do so. As for your comment I am a Trinidad but I'm mixed with both Indian and Spanish. When I indicate that I'm half SPANISH I wasn't refering to Venezuela. I was refering to both grandparents ethnicity. In Trinindad once you have indigenous blood you are considered a spanish. Hope this some what make you understand. If you have any more questions feel free to contact me again.
Addendum:
Also keep in mind that the first MtDNA Eve came into being about 250,000 years ago. That period of time is too short for humans to begin displaying genetic variations, (the races.) Genetic variation is a slow process that takes a whole lot of millions of years. It would make sense if we all looked alike if we had a single common ancestry.
But we don't and logically one can say that we all look alike within our racial groups, this means that we might have arisen from a common ancestry within our our racial group. Paaleoanthropologists seem to be ignoring the above.
Another blooper, the Neaderthals did have ceremonies during the burial of their dead. They placed flowers and sprinkled yellow ochre on the body and included the dead person's tools in the grave.
They did have a primitive form of art to decorate their tools with too.
Ayes
I am writing you this morning to make some corrections.
The person I meant to write about was Louis Leakey, Richard Leakey's father.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html
The link above will take you to an article based on Louis Leakey's premise:
"Origins of Modern Humans: Multiregional or Out of Africa"
I have to warn you though, he was a firm believer in the origin of human beings arising from the apes.
There is a lot of controversy here about humans arising from apes.
But you do have to take into consideration that chimps are just one chromosome away from being human. Everything on this planet is related to another creature in one way or another. That's what interconnectedness is all about. I am sure that I am related to a lot of Cubans, Dominicans, South Americans, Central Americans et al, and I don't mind the possibility of maybe being related to the great apes either. What if Adam was an ape instead of a full fledged human?
An ape can be considered, humanoid because it can stand on two legs and hunt and use a limited amount of logic. Chimps do all of the former. They are very social too. But I am always cautious by not saying I agree with all the paleontologists say about evolution. There's a lot of flaws in those theories too.
Ayes
I think I can rightly say that the Guanahuatabey and Ciboney did live in Puerto Rico. On my personal page at Family Tree DNA I have well over 125 people who match my maternal ancestor's MtDNA. HVR1 and HVR2 sequences. So I can say with some justification that their ancestors must have gotten to Puerto Rico during the repartamiento de Indios very early on, from 1502 through 1600's. They survived living in Puerto Rico as did my MtDNA matches ancestors.
DNA and its study isn't so difficult. If you like I can share some URL's with you that talk about it.
Let me know.
Again, I can't wait for the Ponce DNA tests to go public. They should speak to us about classic Taino sequences. It would be a riot if they matched Ciboney and Guanahuatabey sequences.
You know something primo,
Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic were all one nation. Even during the Spanish days, when the new people came to take it away from the Spanish they became separate countries.
What happened there I can't fully understand.
I'd love to see those three countries come together once again too.
Ayes
hello, I live in Buffalo which is 8-10 hours from the city I am like 10 minutes from Canada but I do visit NY city were I was born so i will remember to check it out when i do go to the city I enjoyed your photos i put some on of my family
Peace and blessings always
NancyMaria
I don't ascribe to what is contained within the URL links I supplied in the post. I posted those links to allow people to read for themselves the many different opinions and theories that have been surrounding Luzia.
The hoax you wrote about was the Piltdown man Hoax. It had nothing to do with "Lucy." That hoax happened in the early 19th century.
In any case. There are people saying that the Olmec were of African origin. In one of those URL links there was an article that showed photos making comparisons between Olmecs and Africans and Olmecs and American Indigenous people. The author defeated his premise when he showed the comparisons between Olmecs and American Indigenous people. There were many faces within the American Indig. people that matched the Olmec faces.
Look at the post where I included a photo of me at the age of 14. Below that is my mother and below that is my Grand Mother. She was Haplo Group C, Guanahuatabey-Ciboney. Her eyes were Chino and her nose was broad, and her lips were full.
I found another article that spoke to me of a find underwater in the Yucatan. The assemblages were dated 13,400 or 13,900 BC and were written up at the time as "the oldest human fossil remains in the Americas." They were definitely, caucasaoid. That find has been displaced by Luzia's date. 14,480 - 14,475, she was 20 or 25 years of age.
One can argue the African ancestry theory till they are blue in the face and one can argue the caucasoid ancestry theory in the same manner.
Until the MtDNA results come we are all whistling dixie. The MtDNA will cut through the verbage like a warm knife through butter.
My position is that Luzia might have been Indigenous. Haplo Group C used to be very strong beginning at the farthest point South above the Artic, the next place was Inca country and then Brazil. It suddenly weakens in the Yucatan and Central Mexico. It become strong again in the Na-Deen tribes. It weakens again around the region until it picks up again in the North Central United States. Again, I am whistling dixie until those MtDNA results are published.
Thanks for your input. If you find out more bring it here or post an article on it. Perhaps if we keep the discussion rolling others will participate too. Need input from college students who have access to MtDNA papers from Max Planck and the other DNA study going on in Brazil on Luzia's people.
Hola, Juan:
Thanks for the input on Luzia.
They never found the jaw. But one can triagulate using the zygomatic arch and estimate what the jaw might have been like. Of course the resultant image would stil be a guesstimate.
The found other assemblages in the same area that had the same physical attributes of Luzia, that might have helped them to reconstruct an entire face with a jaw included.
Here's another link that explores the theory of an African Origin for Olmecs. It presents ideas that also refutes the African origin by comparing the morphology of American Indigeneous people with the Olmecs. Good article.
http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/afmaya2.pdf
I am agreeing with you that Luzia and her people weren't African.
Please, I hope no one is taking these statements as being racist remarks.
Ayes
I am not buying the African theory either in regard to the Olmec and Luzia. Nor am I buying the "Pale Ink" theory either that they were descendants of Chinese Buddhists.
What I am looking at is the Morphology aspect between Luzia's people and the Olmecs. I am waiting to find the results of her family's MtDNA testing. They found more assemblages in the same area. They were buried with care as well.
No one can really say where the Olmecs came from. But I do know this, in light of Luzia's discovery and dating the Olmecs might have been around for a pretty long time. Their matehematics and art were pretty well developed. Those take a long time to nurture and practice.
Perhaps thousands of years.
Richard leaky I, had a theory that humans had developed independently from Africa. Those 11,400 year old MtDNA sequences will tell us, providing they release the data someday soon.
Ayes
Hola, Juan. yes, I met Jorge thanks to Ruben as well as I met you. Yesterday I was trying to find a photo of and old taino lady to show Ruben how my grandma looked like but I did not find it. I am not sure if this is due to I thought she was taina and she was not or the tainos I see here are different.
Hola, Juan:
Glad you are here.
I was getting ready to write a post much later about what is in my MtDNA. But I might as well share it with you today here.
I have HVR1 and HVR2 results that tell me that I am Haplo Group C.
Haplo Group C tells me that I am a descendant of an Indian woman.
I already know who were the Indigineous women and men who contributed to my genetic pool.
C. Lalueza Fox and her associates did an MtDNA study in 2001 in Cuba and what is now the Dominican Republic. They were studying the people called Ciboney. They also studied the GuanaHuatabey of western Cuba. I found a total of two HVR1 matches in Cuba and five in what is now the Dominican Republic. In light bof those HVR1 matches they are definitely my Ancestors.
(Sic, I have capitalized ancestors out of respect.)
If you look at my family tree of the Maldonado Ortiz online you will see that I have placed those Ancestors at the beginning of my Maternal and Paternal lineage.
The Guanahuatabey, Ciboney, and Caribs as well as other tribes of the Caribbean are considered "neo Taino" by the scientific community.
It is known historically that the Guanahatabey spoke a much different language than the classic Taino did. So much so that it has been recorded that the Taino needed an interpreter to speak to a Guanahuatabey.
Puerto Rico has a very distinct historical background based upon the classic Taino, but Cuba has its Guanahatabey tradition meshed in its culture.
(If you don't mind, I want to use what I am writing here to you as the basis for my next post. Because it is getting very interesting.)
I also want to mention something very important here.
Awhile back in Brazil the remains of an ancient woman was found 40 feet beneath the surface in a cave. They have named her Lazia.
Lazia laid around for a long time in storage until someone got curious and took her skull to reconstruct it by fleshing it in with clay.
This happened after they found out that Lazia remains were 11,500 years old. They also determined that she died at the age of 20. So, she is Abt 11,480 years old. Lazia predates the Mongolian crossing of the Bering Strait. Unfortunately, I don't know if any mtDNA tests were derived from her bones. Some scientists are still pushing the bering Strait theory, others are speculating that her people came up from the south by way of Tierra del Fuego. I am very partial to the latter, southern entry point into the Americas, by the way.
They say she looks African, but when I looked a little closer at her,
I am a portrait artist who has studied racial characteristics, I see with her face the face of an Olmec who came to Veracruz about 1,600 years ago to raise a civilization there that later influenced the whole southern part of the Americas and maybe up north as well, refer to the mound builders.
Interesting. No?
I hope I answered your question.
John Ayes
Hi Juan,
Beautiful pictures you've got! You seem to have a large family... :-)
And yes, I can only agree to what you have written about Jorge Estevez - he seem to have so much knowledge in the field.
About my work i Dominica and the Caribs - I will gladly publish the work as soon as it is ready, which I hope will be in the near future.
So you are a taino from Kiskeya? Could you tell me more?
/Pernilla
I'm glad you enjoyed it, I will try to post more events up, and keep up with this site, it will teach you many things and maybe change your perspective on indigenous awareness
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Peace unto u and ur family you would love this area kind of quiet but a lot to see like the great Niagara Falls and u can walk over the bridge to Canada if u ever get to these parts let me know we have the great turtle 6 nations in this part Seneca onondaga mohawk cayuga tuscarora oneida these tribes are very different from the southern and western tribes
well take care
Peace
Nancy
Thanks for writing on my page, I always welcome ppl to do so. As for your comment I am a Trinidad but I'm mixed with both Indian and Spanish. When I indicate that I'm half SPANISH I wasn't refering to Venezuela. I was refering to both grandparents ethnicity. In Trinindad once you have indigenous blood you are considered a spanish. Hope this some what make you understand. If you have any more questions feel free to contact me again.
Take care of your self .
Bye
Also keep in mind that the first MtDNA Eve came into being about 250,000 years ago. That period of time is too short for humans to begin displaying genetic variations, (the races.) Genetic variation is a slow process that takes a whole lot of millions of years. It would make sense if we all looked alike if we had a single common ancestry.
But we don't and logically one can say that we all look alike within our racial groups, this means that we might have arisen from a common ancestry within our our racial group. Paaleoanthropologists seem to be ignoring the above.
Another blooper, the Neaderthals did have ceremonies during the burial of their dead. They placed flowers and sprinkled yellow ochre on the body and included the dead person's tools in the grave.
They did have a primitive form of art to decorate their tools with too.
Ayes
I am writing you this morning to make some corrections.
The person I meant to write about was Louis Leakey, Richard Leakey's father.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html
The link above will take you to an article based on Louis Leakey's premise:
"Origins of Modern Humans: Multiregional or Out of Africa"
I have to warn you though, he was a firm believer in the origin of human beings arising from the apes.
There is a lot of controversy here about humans arising from apes.
But you do have to take into consideration that chimps are just one chromosome away from being human. Everything on this planet is related to another creature in one way or another. That's what interconnectedness is all about. I am sure that I am related to a lot of Cubans, Dominicans, South Americans, Central Americans et al, and I don't mind the possibility of maybe being related to the great apes either. What if Adam was an ape instead of a full fledged human?
An ape can be considered, humanoid because it can stand on two legs and hunt and use a limited amount of logic. Chimps do all of the former. They are very social too. But I am always cautious by not saying I agree with all the paleontologists say about evolution. There's a lot of flaws in those theories too.
Ayes
I think I can rightly say that the Guanahuatabey and Ciboney did live in Puerto Rico. On my personal page at Family Tree DNA I have well over 125 people who match my maternal ancestor's MtDNA. HVR1 and HVR2 sequences. So I can say with some justification that their ancestors must have gotten to Puerto Rico during the repartamiento de Indios very early on, from 1502 through 1600's. They survived living in Puerto Rico as did my MtDNA matches ancestors.
DNA and its study isn't so difficult. If you like I can share some URL's with you that talk about it.
Let me know.
Again, I can't wait for the Ponce DNA tests to go public. They should speak to us about classic Taino sequences. It would be a riot if they matched Ciboney and Guanahuatabey sequences.
You know something primo,
Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic were all one nation. Even during the Spanish days, when the new people came to take it away from the Spanish they became separate countries.
What happened there I can't fully understand.
I'd love to see those three countries come together once again too.
Ayes
Peace and blessings always
NancyMaria
I don't ascribe to what is contained within the URL links I supplied in the post. I posted those links to allow people to read for themselves the many different opinions and theories that have been surrounding Luzia.
The hoax you wrote about was the Piltdown man Hoax. It had nothing to do with "Lucy." That hoax happened in the early 19th century.
In any case. There are people saying that the Olmec were of African origin. In one of those URL links there was an article that showed photos making comparisons between Olmecs and Africans and Olmecs and American Indigenous people. The author defeated his premise when he showed the comparisons between Olmecs and American Indigenous people. There were many faces within the American Indig. people that matched the Olmec faces.
Look at the post where I included a photo of me at the age of 14. Below that is my mother and below that is my Grand Mother. She was Haplo Group C, Guanahuatabey-Ciboney. Her eyes were Chino and her nose was broad, and her lips were full.
I found another article that spoke to me of a find underwater in the Yucatan. The assemblages were dated 13,400 or 13,900 BC and were written up at the time as "the oldest human fossil remains in the Americas." They were definitely, caucasaoid. That find has been displaced by Luzia's date. 14,480 - 14,475, she was 20 or 25 years of age.
One can argue the African ancestry theory till they are blue in the face and one can argue the caucasoid ancestry theory in the same manner.
Until the MtDNA results come we are all whistling dixie. The MtDNA will cut through the verbage like a warm knife through butter.
My position is that Luzia might have been Indigenous. Haplo Group C used to be very strong beginning at the farthest point South above the Artic, the next place was Inca country and then Brazil. It suddenly weakens in the Yucatan and Central Mexico. It become strong again in the Na-Deen tribes. It weakens again around the region until it picks up again in the North Central United States. Again, I am whistling dixie until those MtDNA results are published.
Thanks for your input. If you find out more bring it here or post an article on it. Perhaps if we keep the discussion rolling others will participate too. Need input from college students who have access to MtDNA papers from Max Planck and the other DNA study going on in Brazil on Luzia's people.
John Ayes
Thanks for the input on Luzia.
They never found the jaw. But one can triagulate using the zygomatic arch and estimate what the jaw might have been like. Of course the resultant image would stil be a guesstimate.
The found other assemblages in the same area that had the same physical attributes of Luzia, that might have helped them to reconstruct an entire face with a jaw included.
Here's another link that explores the theory of an African Origin for Olmecs. It presents ideas that also refutes the African origin by comparing the morphology of American Indigeneous people with the Olmecs. Good article.
http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/afmaya2.pdf
I am agreeing with you that Luzia and her people weren't African.
Please, I hope no one is taking these statements as being racist remarks.
Ayes
I am not buying the African theory either in regard to the Olmec and Luzia. Nor am I buying the "Pale Ink" theory either that they were descendants of Chinese Buddhists.
What I am looking at is the Morphology aspect between Luzia's people and the Olmecs. I am waiting to find the results of her family's MtDNA testing. They found more assemblages in the same area. They were buried with care as well.
No one can really say where the Olmecs came from. But I do know this, in light of Luzia's discovery and dating the Olmecs might have been around for a pretty long time. Their matehematics and art were pretty well developed. Those take a long time to nurture and practice.
Perhaps thousands of years.
Richard leaky I, had a theory that humans had developed independently from Africa. Those 11,400 year old MtDNA sequences will tell us, providing they release the data someday soon.
Ayes
I made a typo.
Her name is Luzia not Lazia.
Ayes
Glad you are here.
I was getting ready to write a post much later about what is in my MtDNA. But I might as well share it with you today here.
I have HVR1 and HVR2 results that tell me that I am Haplo Group C.
Haplo Group C tells me that I am a descendant of an Indian woman.
I already know who were the Indigineous women and men who contributed to my genetic pool.
C. Lalueza Fox and her associates did an MtDNA study in 2001 in Cuba and what is now the Dominican Republic. They were studying the people called Ciboney. They also studied the GuanaHuatabey of western Cuba. I found a total of two HVR1 matches in Cuba and five in what is now the Dominican Republic. In light bof those HVR1 matches they are definitely my Ancestors.
(Sic, I have capitalized ancestors out of respect.)
If you look at my family tree of the Maldonado Ortiz online you will see that I have placed those Ancestors at the beginning of my Maternal and Paternal lineage.
The Guanahuatabey, Ciboney, and Caribs as well as other tribes of the Caribbean are considered "neo Taino" by the scientific community.
It is known historically that the Guanahatabey spoke a much different language than the classic Taino did. So much so that it has been recorded that the Taino needed an interpreter to speak to a Guanahuatabey.
Puerto Rico has a very distinct historical background based upon the classic Taino, but Cuba has its Guanahatabey tradition meshed in its culture.
(If you don't mind, I want to use what I am writing here to you as the basis for my next post. Because it is getting very interesting.)
I also want to mention something very important here.
Awhile back in Brazil the remains of an ancient woman was found 40 feet beneath the surface in a cave. They have named her Lazia.
Lazia laid around for a long time in storage until someone got curious and took her skull to reconstruct it by fleshing it in with clay.
This happened after they found out that Lazia remains were 11,500 years old. They also determined that she died at the age of 20. So, she is Abt 11,480 years old. Lazia predates the Mongolian crossing of the Bering Strait. Unfortunately, I don't know if any mtDNA tests were derived from her bones. Some scientists are still pushing the bering Strait theory, others are speculating that her people came up from the south by way of Tierra del Fuego. I am very partial to the latter, southern entry point into the Americas, by the way.
They say she looks African, but when I looked a little closer at her,
I am a portrait artist who has studied racial characteristics, I see with her face the face of an Olmec who came to Veracruz about 1,600 years ago to raise a civilization there that later influenced the whole southern part of the Americas and maybe up north as well, refer to the mound builders.
Interesting. No?
I hope I answered your question.
John Ayes
Beautiful pictures you've got! You seem to have a large family... :-)
And yes, I can only agree to what you have written about Jorge Estevez - he seem to have so much knowledge in the field.
About my work i Dominica and the Caribs - I will gladly publish the work as soon as it is ready, which I hope will be in the near future.
So you are a taino from Kiskeya? Could you tell me more?
/Pernilla
It was good seeing you too, I wish I had seen you earlier so we could have talked more. See you at the next gatherings
Caracoli
(tainoray)